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Best POST EVER seen on the vine!

Thanks sir!

Jake-413451

yet we have people in this country who believe that anyone should

And the first straw man comes out to meet the torch. You know I was going to give a counter example to show why using the most extreme position is a complete and utter invalid method for argument. But I think just pointing it out should be good enough.

The Founding Fathers wrote the Second Amendment because they feared that Americans would be invaded by a foreign army,

Oh, so your article is a work of fiction?

The constitutions of most of our States assert, that all power is inherent in the people; that they may exercise it by themselves, in all cases to which they think themselves competent, (as in electing their functionaries executive and legislative, and deciding by a jury of themselves, in all judiciary cases in which any fact is involved,) or they may act by representatives, freely and equally chosen; that it is their right and duty to be at all times armed - Thomas Jefferson

[The Constitution preserves] the advantage of being armed which Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation...(where) the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms.- James Madison,The Federalist Papers, No. 46.

[W]hen the resolution of enslaving America was formed in Great Britain, the British Parliament was advised by an artful man, who was governor of Pennsylvania, to disarm the people - George Mason

Whereas civil-rulers, not having their duty to the people duly before them, may attempt to tyrannize, and as military forces, which must be occasionally raised to defend our country, might pervert their power to the injury of their fellow citizens, the people are confirmed by the article in their right to keep and bear their private arms."
-- Tench Coxe, in Remarks on the First Part of the Amendments to the Federal Constitution

Are we at last brought to such an humiliating and debasing degradation that we cannot be trusted with arms for our own defense? Where is the difference between having our arms under our own possesion and under our own direction, and having them under the management of Congress? If our defense be the real object of having those arms, in whose hands can they be trusted with more propriety, or equal safety to us, as in our own hands?" - Patrick Henry

Another source of power in government is a military force. But this, to be efficient, must be superior to any force that axists among the people, or which they can command; for otherwise this force would be annihilated, on the first exercise of acts of oppression. Before a standing army can rule, the people must be disarmed; as they are in almost every kingdom in Europe. The supreme power in America cannot enforce unjust laws by the sword; because the whole body of the people are armed, and constitute a force superior to any band of regular troops that can be, on any pretense, raised in the United States. A military force, at the command of Congress, can execute no laws, but such as the people perceive to be just and constitutional; for they will possess the power, and jealousy will instantly inspire the inclination, to resist the execution of a law which appears to them unjust and oppressive." - Noah Webster An Examination of the Leading Principles of the Federal Constitution, Philadelphia, 1787

Those are not arguments respecting a foreign invasion, those are proponents citing defense against the State, self-defense. Were you unaware of these positions, or were they inconvenient?

If you disagree they are still a legitimate concern fine, but don't try and re-write history, ignoring the parts that hurt your argument, in order to try and say what their motivations were.

Where should we start? Oh! I know!

Please, allow me-

"I shot him as much as I could" - Unnamed attempted rape victim after defending herself

Homeowner kills intruder (breaking in a house that someone is inside of is an inherently violent act)

Woman defending herself and three children shoots an armed intruder

Jewelry store owner defends self and wife from armed thieves

Grandmother shoots home intruder

These three are collected in one story look them up individually if you wish:

After helping men with a stalled car man stabbed repeatedly in his home. Defending himself he shoots the criminals.
Man high on drugs breaks in a house, naked, chases children stabbing them with a pitchfork. After he kills two police arrive and shoot him. 14 year old could not act to defend them because the gun she was trained to use was locked up in compliance with California law.
12 year old shoots person who was choking er mother.

Ten year old defends self and sister from home invaders.

80 year old defends self, 83 year old wife, and 57 year old son from 29 year old.

another: 80 year old defends self from armed intruder

You ask where should we start, where would you like me to stop? Each and every one of those people were using firearms to level the playing field. Notice they weren't all going up against people with guns. One man was killing kids with a pitchfork, another was a man being stabbed, some were just likely to be weaker than their attacker.

Why do we still debate this

Good question.

— Rockyroad-531554

Jake! We are missing you here bro... Where have you been? Come back?

— onomatopoeia

You're the man Jake! I always enjoy your take on things... Happy to have you as a friend buddy!

— onomatopoeia

Thanks for the comment. The feeling is mutual. I think life is about learning, not agreeing. Insight cannot come when a mind is closed, and to disagree is an opportunity to find understanding. Your posts are so well formulated and referenced that they provide just those opportunities.

— landspirit

Per your request I deleted 8.7 and 8.8. Sorry about the trolling issue you've got. Hope it helped.

— veryhappydemocracy?

Welcome to NewsVine, Jake. I don't think you and I will agree very often, but I certainly have to admire the quality of your arguments and the difficulty of refuting them. I hope you stick around. Your side desperately needs someone who can argue their point of view effectively enough to make me resonsider mine.

— REDaly

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